I agree with most of what ORF posted. A simple disclaimer should do the trick for shows like Gruno's, which seem to only offend a small minority of listeners. I notice that Rene mentioned they got "complaints from time to time". He didn't say they got volumes of complaints every day or that they had been reprimanded by the FCC or that they were in danger of losing the main portion of their financial support (all of which would have been legitimate reasons, imo).
One outgrowth of this politically correct age we live in is a movement to legitimize censorship, except they call it "sensitivity" or "tolerance". Sorry, but it doesn't wash with me. I will be the first to agree that Gruno has an abrasive style and sometimes it can be annoying if I'm not in the mood for it. You know what I do? I switch it off!
As for management's concerns about labels not wanting to send promotional material to them anymore, I think that these independent labels that distribute specialized genres like this are happy to send their product anywhere it is likely to get heard. If the station depended on commercial advertising and was concerned about losing sponsorship, I could see why they might be worried about an offensive host scaring off sponsors. After all, look at Howard Stern. Oh wait, he hasn't turned out to be a liability to his station after all.
The disclaimer idea is a logical and simple solution. I have seen no posts or comments in chat from anyone other than DLBN management in favor of Gruno's cancellation. I have had the sense that management is a reasonable group of people. I hope I am right and that they might consider revisiting this issue and trying to work out some way to resolve this unfortunate situation. I also know I am not alone in saying that I may, as a matter of principle, have to reconsider my future as a DLBN listener. That is not something I want to do, but I cannot ignore my concern about the way this matter has been handled thus far. I say again that I hope the parties involved might revisit the issue and try to come up with an equitable solution, and I wish them well in that process.
Wow. First of all, thank you, Rene for providing a much more detailed explanation of what happened than I expected to get. I have been ascribing all sorts of different motives to this event, and I appreciate your clearing the air as far as exactly what events took place to predicate this action. That being said, I guess the main issue I have is with the direction that you and Shawn have decided is the desirable one for DLBN to go in.
Ahh, success. It is a tantalising drug, is it not? It must be pretty euphoric to begin to become a part of an industry that you once gazed at longingly from the outside. Promo copies of new releases, listening parties with major artists of the genre, exclusive interviews.... What could be next? Could DLBN be on its way to becoming an integral part of this scene? A major stop on the publicity train for up and coming prog artists? Who knows- maybe soon it will be that a nod from DLBN will be a make-or-break requirement for a new band coming up, or an established act with a new release. Heady stuff, to be sure. And very attractive, to boot. Who wouldn't want to have that kind of success, that kind of validation. I think, however, that you need to take a look at what got you to this position in the first place. Like ORF said, it is the strong, unique personalities of people like G and PapaJ that have set you guys apart from the HUNDREDS of internet stations that do what you do. Do you really think that that automated feed of yours is so unique and revolutionary? I can find the exact same playlist in a dozen different spots. I've got a flash for y'all- it's not the content- it's the PRESENTATION. You've got to remember who your average proghead is. By definition, we are OUTSIDERS. We love a genre that is not only outside the mainstream, but excoriated by it. But we persevere. We find comfort in the fact that our tastes are NOT the tastes of the masses. Elitist? Maybe, but this is the mindset we've had to adopt in order to keep our integrity. And integrity is the one common thread that links all the bands that folks like us enjoy. When one of our favorite bands "sells out" in order to achieve mainstream acceptance, are we not saddened? Saddened, but not surprised. Like I said, success is a powerful drug. It is the ultimate in validation- or is it? I would put forth that success garnered at the expense of the very things that made you special is not success at all. It is surrender.
Kevin Gilbert put it best :
Oh, Johnny you’ve got a seed in your head It is the seed of your demise Ambition’s gonna lure you away Into the land of compromise
OK, I've been quiet on this subject so far, as have the rest of the staff. And of course you all know that Gruno and I are the best of friends. Certainly together we have produced some of the most controversial programming on the station. I'm all about free speech and expression, and would buck violently if the Dividing Line were to try to dictate the direction that I take the Matinee, and the "comedy" bits that I have attempted. This thread so far has been one of overwhelming support for Gruno, and basically for that ideal. I applaud you all for your solidarity and loyalty to G, even when he has irritated many of you with his over-the-top anti-prog rhetoric. There can be no higher sign of respect than is being shown here. Certainly this sentiment should be factored into what happens as we move forward.
HOWEVER...
I am NOT in favor of anarchistic radio. I don't believe there should be NO boundaries to how far things are taken. I think there is a gray area that has been treaded on and at times stepped over. There are certain considerations that are important for ME personally, and I will try to innumerate those here. Some are fairly black and white, while on some the line is a bit blurry, and not so absolute. Many of these points can be argued on the "absolute" basis, and there will often be exceptions that I would accept. Also, I am not saying that I personally have never crossed over these lines, because I HAVE. But I am not necessarily proud of those instances when I have. All that being said, here goes.
At the top of the list is a basic respect for other human beings. I am against mean spirited attacks on people without provacation. I don't think it's right for instance for me to say that Gene Simmonds is a money grubbing talentless opportunist, who has cashed in on the ignorance of an entire generation, even if I believe it to be true. And certainly attacks like that on other DJ's or listeners is clearly unacceptable. That's just a common decency thing. This is an example of one of the more clear cut ideas.
This is a station that was dedicated to providing a place for progressive rock music fans to congregate and to exchange opinions on music as well as be exposed to other new music that might be interesting to fans with similar tastes. Oh, and we'd like to offer some entertainment as well. It was established by Shawn, and he had a vision for what it might become. I also think I could even articulate a "vision statement" that would be fairly accurate based on my association and communication with him. I actually think that ANY of the DJ's here could, we all know what we signed on for.
I think it is helpful to think of this as a business rather than a hobbyist activity, even though in the strictest sense it isn't. We certainly strive for professionalism (I should talk!), and more than anything we want to provide a friendly and comfortable atmosphere that fosters the objectives that I have stated. In this paradigm the DJ's are employees, and the listeners are our customers. I like this example because I think ALL of us know what is and IS NOT acceptable in the workplace. It is not right to be rude to your customers. Employees should always err on the side of politeness, even when customers are rude to them. They should try to exhaust all reasonable means to accomodating them before sending them away, realizing that they have other choices, and their business is what we ultimately want. But we also need to be true to ourselves as employees, and not be patronizing just for the sake of getting business. Also as employees we need to try to get along with each other, and the best employees will actually do what they can to help each other succeed, because an individual failure is really a failure for the whole company. In addition, we have a boss. He sets the goals, the desired conduct, and ultimately makes decisions about what is acceptable both from an employee practice standpoint, as well as from a business development standpoint.
Now I will try to bring this concept to bear on what is taking place here. First off, it would never be acceptable for me to go into chat on someone elses show (or mine for that matter), and start making comments to anger or insult someone who is trying to enjoy being there. Granted, sometimes listeners go over the line themselves, and THEIR conduct can be unacceptable. We have had those instances here, and they have resulted in a couple of lifetime bans. But it is not legitimate for me to go into say, Frank's show and launch verbal assaults on the taste of his listeners, simply because I don't like what THEY do. I can dissent without attacking, it just takes a little tact. As long as I keep in mind that taste in music is a subjective judgement, and that there are no RIGHT and WRONG opinions with regard to music quality, I should be OK. If I want to do that to my OWN listeners, I suppose I could cut my own throat, but I CERTAINLY should not do that to one of my fellow employees.
We have tried very hard to establish contacts DEEP inside the music business, and I think we have suceeded in doing so. This means that we can bring a perspective to our listeners that they cannot get anywhere else, and is good for the business overall. Gruno is certainly high on the list when it comes to bringing us those INSIDE contacts. He has generously shared his experiences and exchanges with artists, and most of us have enjoyed that. But in addition, for me personally, many of these business contacts have led and are leading to other ends that I really hold dear. I am speaking specifically now in the area of promoting live shows. I have been involved in various aspects of music my entire life, and this past year, producing the Neal Morse concert in Whittier was in many respects the culmination of an entire life's worth of efforts. It also was in a sense, a new beginning for me. I have always wondered where all this music stuff was leading me, and I think somewhere in the back of my head, that I may be finally realizing what I can do with all this. As you know, Gruno has very little respect / admiration for Neal, which is certainly his right. And to his great credit, he agreed to be my right hand man on this production out of his respect for ME, and honestly I have to give a huge measure of credit to his efforts for the wonderful success this show had.
But there were times when his actions and words with regards to Neal, in public forums, made me quite uncomfortable, and made me worry about losing the confidence that Neal had bestowed in me. In the same respect, I worried that similar comments might jeopardize Mike P's appearance on the Matinee recently. Being a friend to musicians as he is, he surely knows that many of these guys have fragile egos, not to mention that it doesn't make sense for them to bank on people who aren't 100% in support of them. To me, for anyone here at the station to alienate a business contact that I've worked so hard to cultivate would be a primordial transgression. It has not happened... SO FAR. It is of paramount importance that we not let it happen, ever. This is not one-sided either, Management should not take unauthorized liberties in contacting personal connections, as that may betray the personal trust that an artist has. It is a line that EVERYONE needs to be sensitive to.
It is not uncommon at this point in the Dividing Line evolution to have any number of industry insiders present at any one of our shows. Everything that goes out over the air or in chat should be scrutinized with the barometer of whether or not it could be offensive to one of these very important business contacts. Our conduct could easily make the difference whether a musician chooses us or one of our competitors as the vehicle for exclusive promotion access. If you think I'm being unduely pretentious, consider this: In the Matinee chat or listening to the archives in the past year have been the President of Metal Blade records and many of his staff, the management of InsideOut Music America, Neal Morse, Nick D'Virgilio, Ty Tabor, Mike Keneally, Mike Portnoy, a NY Times Best Selling author, artist's managers, and the list just keeps on going. I consider each one of these contacts VERY IMPORTANT to me and the station.
So what does all this have to do with Gruno? He walks the line between incisive and offensive. That is both his strength and his liability. He scares the hell out of me, and he scares the hell out of management. I have the utmost faith that he knows where all the lines are that I've just pointed out, and yet he seems to be resistant to pledging his allegiance to all this, almost to the point of saying that it's absurd to ask him to do so. For the life of me I still don't understand where this "resentment for authority" comes from, but it is there nonetheless. Management has tried to draw lines in the gray areas and he continues to push the limits. After some very specific warnings, he continued to cross over into the nether regions, and management responded with the action that is the subject of this thread. I respect their position, and cannot disagree with their stand.
For ME, it would be enough if he just came out and said that he understands all this stuff, and pledged with all sincerity to honor these sacred territories, and to confine the more fringe behavior to just HIS show and chat, because I know he is a man of his word. But I can't speak for management. And maybe he doesn't want to work under any restrictions, implied or specific. That is his choice.
All this being said, I still consider him the best of friends, and will stay close and hope to continue to work with him on other music based projects.
hey ich- the picture of my glorious self is in fact not my link, but a third party one. Plus, it says in the profiles section that the board admins will resize any photos linked to. I guess in their wisdom, they have realized that I am truly larger than life, and have decided to allow my avatar to portray me that way They have the power to cut me down to size, and my permission as well. God knows my posts are long enough as it is......
Ok, I am just going to say this since evryone knows it but they are afraid to because they dont want to be banned.
There has been a continuing personality conflict between Gruno and Alistair. Since Alistair is in a position of some influence around here, he had the power to take this out on Gruno by finally getting him canned.
I think it is a shame that the other parties in power here allowed someone to take out thier personal grudge on one of the employees.
If this was a case of standards, almost every DJ on this station would have been gone at some point for something they said, or in some cases the music they played.
Now most people know that I disagree with Gruno vehemently, and I have taken offense to many things he has said. But I am not comfortable with someone else making that decision for other people. I have also taken offense to CM's constant harping about George Bush and his big push for legalization of dope. Does that mean that I should go and complain to Rene or Shawn about what CM talks about?
What a boring world this would be! We could all sit around and listen to replays of old BBC radio shows about bird migrations since it is unlikely that anyone would be interested enough to be offended.
If this really is about standards and practices, then let us talk about the standard and practice of BANNING a musicians music due to a conflict with a former DJ. What the hell is that? If anybody wants to know why I was not around for the longest time, this was the reason.
Does this mean that NDV gets short shrift now because of his relationship with Gruno? Where does it end.
I think everyone just needs to grow the hell up. Put Gruno back on the air, bury the hatchet with Michele/Buddy and get on with life. I realize that leaving this message may get me banned, but if that is the way it is going to get around here I imagine the chat rooms at Progressive Soundscapes are going to get pretty busy.
I also know that there is alot of ground I have not covered here, but since all this stuff IS being talked about in the chats and in e-mails I thought it should be brought into the light.
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Better to have enemies than friends who are a pain in the rear.
For ME, it would be enough if he just came out and said that he understands all this stuff, and pledged with all sincerity to honor these sacred territories, and to confine the more fringe behavior to just HIS show and chat, because I know he is a man of his word. But I can't speak for management. And maybe he doesn't want to work under any restrictions, implied or specific. That is his choice
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This seems like a reasonable compromise to me. I think Papa also raises some legitimate points. I personally have never found Gruno's anti-prog ridicule to be offensive. Childish, maybe, but not offensive. I can't take any bashing of Yes too seriously that comes from a Slaughter fan
I have never seen him personally attack anyone in any kind of vicious manner in a chat room. Maybe some of the statements he has made regarding certain musicians are of questionable foundation, but are they outright lies or slander? Who knows for sure?
I think maybe some people have been a bit oversensitive when it comes to Gruno. He teases and pokes at people, but I don't think he means them any ill will. It is possible, however, that some people don't take ribbing as well as others. Perhaps Gruno should limit his jabs to people he knows well in the community.
As far as musicians having fragile egos, this is true. It is also true, however, that musicians have to deal with negative reviews by ignorant critics, for example. Any musician knows that everything he or she produces or says is not going to be universally loved by everyone. When I step on stage, I know there will be lots of people who like it and at least one or two who say it sucks. It's just part of the gig.
As far as Gruno jeopardizing DLBN's industry contacts, I wasn't there, so there's not much I can say except that if this has happened, then management certainly has a legitimate concern. I wonder, however, if cancellation was really the only option. Again, I have not witnessed any incidents, so I don't know.
I appreciate PapaJ's candidness and his genuine effort to look at this situation as objectively as possible. I hope that his points regarding BOTH sides of this issue will be given some serious thought. The disclaimer idea and the suggestion that G limit the "maximum Grunoness" to his show seem like they could be reasonable compromises.
Any artist that's gonna abandon any promotional push for their benefit because of one person's opinion is a pin head, and in my opinion doesn't deserve to be heard (Roine Stolt, Papa?) This 'persona' that Gruney affects when online is just that, a 'persona' and not what he acts like out of the context of the show....at least in MY personal chats with him.....he seems to be a very decent guy....I still say the disclaimer is the way to go. The way to get EVERYONE into a 'happy space'.....and oh so simple to do....
Thank you Rene and Jim for your posts. I still feel that this has not been handled very well. As I said in chat last night, censorship and polititical correctness makes for a boring and sterile world. DLBN has lead me to some great music I previously would never have discovered and for that I am thankful. You can't believe how sheltered from good music we are over here in Oz. Having said that, the big draw card for me at DLBN, and indeed what keeps me coming back, are the personalities and the sense of community. Decisions such as this split the community and surely that can't be good. Sometimes Gruno is a bit over the top for my tastes, but is it offensive? Am I adult enough to make my choices or should I only be dealt the cards people want me to see? As for the racial slur, it can't have been very prominant because I can't remember it. Isn't Gruno himself of Hispanic background? Apart from the obvious misguided morons of organised racism, such as the KKK, hasn't the rest of the world become more tolerant in the use of such words?
So, from now on, are we all supposed to say that we love every song played on the station and offer up no criticism? When the station went with a full time automated feed, I thought, "This is great. I can just tune in anytime now and enjoy the music." I rarely listen to the auto feed now. It seems that 90% of the time I check out what's on, and I do check often, i'm treated to either Genesis, Gabriel or Proud To Be Wierd or something else from Shawn's playlist. None of which are in my list of favourites. So what do I do? Do I jump up and down and complain about it, or do I turn it off? The choice is easy. If you don't wanna hear it, whether it's music or Gruno's voice, you can turn it off. Now, I can understand that you don't want anyone turing off your station, but to think that you can always be playing something that everyone wants to hear is naive at best.
Mainstream radio has been censored to the point where all you can hear is what Brittney Fucking Spears was wearing yesterday, followed up by some sensless manufactured garbage. Don't start doing this to Internet radio.
As for Gruno offending people such as musicians or record execs that support the station, Jim got it right here:
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It has not happened... SO FAR
It may never happen - you ever think of that?
Oh, look, one of the words in my post was automatically censored - how appropriate.
Wanna see a DLBN DJ getting stuck into Neal Morse in a public forum? Look no further than your own back yard.
Re:Thoughts on Testimony « Reply #4 on: October 09, 2003, 11:10:03 pm »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am sorry but this album proves that NM has lost his last marble... it is rolling down the street and he has this stupid grin on his face.
God told him to leave the band?? Give me a break, if he is hearing voices he should consult a shrink. He is using that as a crutch to justify a decision he didn't even want to make.
This new album is so blatantly full of religous rhetoric I am ashamed to admit I love the (previous) music of this brilliant man. And while I'm on that topic, what a frekin' waste of incredible and rare talent. Anyone can write generic drivel, that is what made NM so great... but now he is down with the simple musicians writing stuff that doesn't stand out from his previous work.
"There has been a continuing personality conflict between Gruno and Alistair. Since Alistair is in a position of some influence around here, he had the power to take this out on Gruno by finally getting him canned.
I think it is a shame that the other parties in power here allowed someone to take out thier personal grudge on one of the employees." _________________________________________________
I have been quietly reading the messages and feel it is time to break my silence. I would like to start off by saying that I don't believe I have ever spoken with theripperking before... if I am incorrect, I appologize. I guess I just don't understand how you (as well as others?) seem to have such strong opinions about me when no one has contacted me with any questions.
To use an analogy, I feel like I am being led into the courtroom with the sentence already written before the trial begins.
I think most of you know Shawn and Rene far better than you know me. Maybe that's my fault. Either way, they would never let me do something as drastic as what has transpired here. There's no way. Regardless what my personal feelings on someone may be, they would NEVER let me do anything close to what is being infered.
Believe it or not, I think one of the main reasons Gruno and I clash is because our personalities are actually quite similar. Trust me, that wasn't easy to say. The point is, I will be the scapegoat on this if you want one. Think what you will of me, but Shawn and Rene have far more integrity than that.
Papa, you said some very reasonable things. But to tell someone they are not allowed to speak their mind lest it may offend a possible guest or industry insider is simply ridiculous. Would this mean that you in the future won't say something along the lines of," Unfold the Future was your biggest disappointment of '02", or something to that effect? Remember the waves that made? I supported your right to make that statement then, and would do so again today. I also assume this means no more drinking on the air by any and all DJ's, no more cussing of any sort, no more singing over any and all songs (Gruno is definitely not alone there), no more sleeping on air ( ) and on and on.
I agree, Gruno can be tiring in his always letting everyone know his dislike of most things prog. Still, everyone knew this going in. I don't ever recall Gruno not dissing most prog, even before he had his show. So, if there was this grand vision of what the station was to be, why would Gruno ever get a show in the first place? It boggles my mind. Gruno does today the same thing he was doing when his show first started, or heck, even when he was first a guest on Papa's show.
I would rather see Gruno stay with the station & I said as much in a letter to management yesterday.
Unfortunately I had no clue this was coming until Friday afternoon with the brief e-mail announcement...Since I've been overworking lately I wasn't able to listen much of Gruno's December shows either. In cases like this I just wonder if there could have been any third party input (like the other DJs) or intervention that could have taken place before any final decision was made?
In the past year and a half I've been told by Rene or Shawn not to do or play certain things on the air again & I suppose if I had ignored them I would have been gone long ago. I was also asked early on by others & even Gruno himself if I was offended by his "Carney" jokes & bits. In person Gruno seems too be a very reasonable guy...If I had asked him to tone it down I'm sure he would have.
I see the "charges" are clear but I still don't understand how these issues didn't get resolved in time...
Holy cow, don't y'all have anything better to do than to write fricking tomes?
In and amongst the georgewillesque posts, there have been some good points:
There does need to be a certain standard for dealing with artists, especially from the djs. An artist that has taken the time to come visit such a rinky-dink operation (i mean that in an affectionate way) should never be dissed on the air. I also think it's very poor taste for listeners to do the same. Gruno has been guilty of some of that, but he's hardly been the only one. I cannot believe the post the invisible man,,,, err Alistair made about Testimony!
Spock brought up a good point about the whole Buddy/Mic thang... the "management decisions" have been very shortsighted and extremely poorly thought out.
This is clearly another one of those...
I have been very disappointed with a lot of the stuff going on with Rene and Shawn popping in and out of chat, acting like they hadn't been lurking around Gruno's show. You boys need to take some lessons on how to lie and cheat from us Americans!
Now I know you have a station to run and all, but this could well put the DL on track for a total flameout.
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Certainly together we have produced some of the most controversial programming on the station. I'm all about free speech and expression, and would buck violently if the Dividing Line were to try to dictate the direction that I take the Matinee, and the "comedy" bits that I have attempted. This thread so far has been one of overwhelming support for Gruno, and basically for that ideal. I applaud you all for your solidarity and loyalty to G, even when he has irritated many of you with his over-the-top anti-prog rhetoric. There can be no higher sign of respect than is being shown here. Certainly this sentiment should be factored into what happens as we move forward.
) and on and on.
